401: John Fisher is an Expert in Helping People Change–Like You

Welcome to another exciting episode of “On the Brink with Andi Simon!” Today, we are thrilled to have John M. Fisher, an extraordinary management development and soft skill trainer. John specializes in helping people change. People like you!

John also holds the title of chartered psychologist. His expertise in understanding and navigating change is exceptional. John is a valuable resource for our discussion today. As a corporate anthropologist, I always look for individuals who genuinely grasp the challenges of embracing change and making change a friend rather than a foe. John Fisher is one such individual. He has dedicated his career to helping people navigate the complexities of personal and professional transformation.

What is his approach to helping people change?

John’s unique approach, which is centered around maximizing personal understanding, has proven to be highly effective in helping individuals adapt. Helping people change  to new demands in their business environments and personal lives is something that his change curve is specifically designed to address. One of the most impactful tools John has developed is the Change Curve, a robust model that illustrates the stages people must go through to let go of the past and envision a new future. This model is instrumental in helping individuals and organizations understand the emotional and psychological journey involved in change, providing a clear pathway to move forward.

During our conversation, John and I delve into the concept that people live the stories in their minds. Those stories significantly influence their daily actions and beliefs. How can changing the story be helping people change their lives?  When businesses undergo change, or when the business environment shifts, it is imperative for individuals to adjust their internal narratives. However, this is easier said than done, as our brains naturally resist change and cling to familiar patterns. John’s insights into this resistance and his practical strategies for overcoming it are not just enlightening, but also immediately applicable, empowering you to take control of your narrative and adapt to change.

Join us as we explore the intricacies of change management, the importance of self-awareness, and the ways in which we can rewrite our internal stories to better align with new realities. Whether you’re a leader looking to guide your team through transformation or someone seeking personal growth, this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical advice that are relevant to both professional and personal contexts. No matter your role or situation, you’ll find valuable takeaways in this episode. Don’t miss this chance to learn from one of the best in the field, John M. Fisher, on “On the Brink with Andi Simon!”

If you prefer to watch the On the Brink with Andi Simon Podcast, you can find John Fisher’s video here:

You can learn more about John Fisher here.

Listen to others who can help you become the best you can be:

388: Srikumar Rao—Achieve Great Success While Remaining As Serene As A Zen Monk

398: Donny Willis: How to Intentionally Build a Better Life

377: Rose Fass—What If We Could Truly Progress As Humans, One Conversation At A Time 

Additional resources for you

From Observation to Innovation,

CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author
Simonassociates.net
Info@simonassociates.net
@simonandi
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Read the transcript of our podcast below: 

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink, a fresh lens to take you and your business to new heights. This is On the Brink with Andi Simon, a podcast to help you get off the brink. Remember, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And that’s the only way you’re going to find ideas that you can now embrace, test, try and in some way to figure out how to adapt to these fast changing times. I find very interesting and wonderful people. My guests are really a joy to share with you, because they bring perspectives that expand our own and give us some ideas that we can work with. Remember the quote, “if I can’t see it, I can be it”. So today I’m delighted to have John Fisher here from the Lake District of England. Thank you, John, for joining me.

John Fisher: Thank you very much, Andi, for having me. I’m really looking forward to this.

Andi Simon: John and I have kindred spirits. We both like to work with helping people change. That’s his change curve behind him that we’ll talk about.  This is a very interesting conversation for my audience, whether you’re viewing it or listening to it, because our audience is here to learn how to see things in a new way and begin to understand how to change their behaviors and their feelings so they can adapt to fast changing times. Let me tell you a little bit about John, and then I’ll let him tell you about his own journey. He’s an experienced management development and soft skills trainer. The word soft skills is always an interesting thought for me. The hard skills? Soft skills? What are my skills? How do I without the soft skills, you can have any skills. He’s a trainer, a coach, a facilitator, and a counselor. He’s a chartered psychologist working with businesses, both individuals and teams. And as I read about his background while he’s been doing this a long time, his approach keeps evolving. His approach is based on helping you maximize your personal understanding and identify what you can do to improve your personal performance in a relaxed, friendly and safe way. Think about it, change is painful. Your brain hates it. It hates me. It helps John. But you’re here because you know I need to begin to improve. Whether it’s AI or new technologies or new bosses or new generations or a new fill in the blank. They are coming fast. They always have. But now we really know about them. He operates from a personal construct perspective, meaning much of his work is based on understanding the meaning individuals apply to things from within their own map of the world, and how this can help and hinder them. Now remember if I said this once, I’ve said it so many times, humans are meaning makers. I don’t know whether it was 40,000 years ago, 50,000 years ago, 30,000 years ago, we created this amazing transformation on a brain where we can assign things meaning so our rock can have many meanings across, can have many meanings, a crossroads can have many meanings. And what we interpret as the right meaning is very personal to our own story. And that’s why today is so interesting because if you can begin to understand that, and the things holding you back are well within your own, you know your grip. And as I tell my own coaching clients, if you want to change, you own your mind map. And now it’s your turn to tell a new story. How do you do that? Think about it. It’s a new story for you. John, thank you for joining me. And please share with our listeners who is John Fisher. And this is so much fun bringing you as a treat. Who are you?

John Fisher: Thank you. I wonder about that a lot. And a lot of mornings I wake up thinking, who am I? What am I doing? You triggered something there with that, with that summary. And it’s always fascinating hearing somebody else, talking and summarizing. But I have a quote, and I love quotes, that I use in training a lot, with a picture of Humpty Dumpty sitting on a wall and Humpty Dumpty saying, when I use a word, it means exactly what I intended to mean. Nothing more, nothing less. And I think that sums up part of my approach. And another quote I love is, I think from Lao Tzu, mastery of other people is strength. Mastery of yourself is true power. And those sort of concepts really drive everything I do and, really influence who I am. And that sort of concept that I know I’ve been a different person in different situations with different people, and I know I’ve been a different person in the same situation with the same people. And it’s about understanding that from me. And my life journey has been an interesting one. And I love stories as well. and I came from a small village in the Yorkshire Dales. from a working class family, working class background, but with one ambition as a child to join the Air Force. And at 16, I joined the Air Force. I left school with a couple of qualifications and  joined the Air Force working on aircraft, radar systems, radio systems and aircraft simulators. And very quickly learned I wasn’t put out to be an engineer. I was the poster boy for imposter syndrome from that experience of being a really square peg in a really small round hole. The problem was, I was a big square peg, and just didn’t fit comfortably. And so did in the UK. We have a commercial university that’s in the air called the Open University that some of your listeners, I’m sure will be familiar with. And I transited while still working originally on aircraft simulators and did a psychology first degree and came across somebody called George Kelly amongst other people. As soon as I started reading him, I realized that George Kelly wrote my life. It talked about that understanding of the self. We’re all unique individuals. We all react to situations, really based on our past experiences. So maybe one way of bringing that to life is your listeners will listen to this based on your other podcasts, and expect to get something that follows to a great roll. Lesser extent, your other podcasts. And this will either confirm or deny that supposition that then alters the next time they listen to the podcast again. And they’ve got a slightly different anticipation. And that led me through project management into counseling, originally in the helping people sense rather than the legal sense and led to seven years in project management and then an internal consultant helping the organization. I worked for change and deploying a massive internal change that was fascinating and that watching the change and living my experience of not being a comfortable fit in something and having a total mid-career change, in my 30s, led to part of the change behind me that we can talk about in a bit more detail later, but lit through that experience of observing how and why people did and didn’t change the implications and the impact, and that effectively led to becoming a training partner to becoming. I then did a master’s in organizational psychology that effectively led me to where I am today, doing that with some multinational companies as well as some one person companies, family owned businesses, and 1 to 1 organizations. So that’s my story. From being a square peg in a round hole to not working a day for the last 20 years and loving every interaction.

Andi Simon: You know, John, you and I have so much in common because people keep asking me when I’m going to retire. And I said, well, I did about 30 years ago. If retirement is doing what you love to do, and I’m not quite sure what I would do if I wasn’t doing what I’m doing other than playing every day. But you come back to a couple of things that piqued my interest as you were talking. I’m an anthropologist and I have positioned myself for 22 years now as a corporate anthropologist that helps companies change your experience of being inside an organization and watching it try and go through the changes. It really was transformative both for you and for them. Any observations that you can share about the pain of change. Remember the brain hates it and people don’t know how to do that. And they’re afraid of trying new things. And I have a hunch that was the origin of your change process behind you. Give us some sort of personal memories of it, if you could, so that the process you’ve created is reflected in what you learned and you saw. Does that make sense?

John Fisher: It does make sense. And yes, and it is quite strongly steeped in. So the change curve originated when I was a volunteer counselor for an alcohol abuse agency, and a lot of people would come for the first counseling session, have a really good session, sign up to come the following week and not turn up. And this was just across the organization. And I started thinking about that, and I started thinking about the theory of a second no show. I like to label things. It makes it easier to think about them. And I then started thinking about, as an alcohol abuse counselor, people have to change their whole life cycle if they want to do so. They’ve got to change their friends, their environment, how they respond and react. And I started thinking about that impact on people, and it struck me that people went away on a high. The cold light of day the next day, and the realization set in about the impact and the implications for them and the implication for their sense of self and their identity. And that gave birth to the curve. So it’s about our journey and the implications for us as a person and our identity. As we move through the curve, I added a few bits onto the basic concept from Kubler-Ross because it’s a superb concept and I realize that every change involves a loss of some shape as well, usually, but every change in involves a loss. So the idea of the shape just fitted in that concept. And then I started looking at rather than the perspective that Elizabeth Kubler-Ross put on, I started looking at what does that mean for me? And I’m going to start talking about the implications and going down the let’s go the other way, going down the downward curve. that we’ve got there is about the impact and the size of the sense of that change on people. And one of the things I found is that the applications are almost limitless on this new job, coming to a day to sit and to be interviewed or grilled by you as part of this process. They all start these curves going on, because every day you’re saying but different and that whole concept. So that’s where the curve came from. And my master’s dissertation was basically on a major change. I was working for a company that outsourced its whole HR department into a new joint venture company they set up with an asset management person. So I interviewed people, it was going and staying because a few of the paychecks stayed in the parent company, but 90% of us were too paid into another company, to use trade union protection, and give some guarantees on security when you are forced out of one company into another in the UK. And I then went back a year later and interviewed the same people, and then mapped the responses at both times. I used George Kelly’s concept of the repertory grid, which a lot of your listeners may be familiar with, either through psychology or as an MBA. research question type, process. and I looked at ideal HR, the new organization a year in the future as well as HR in the past. How they felt ideal then. And one of the things that came out was that people had been sold such a great change that they anticipated ideal HR.  And HR in the future as being almost identical. It was about a .995 overlap between the two constructs. So really strong sales. I think what we all missed was we were then in a service provision organization that makes its money from descaling the jobs, and it adopted the maister model of subject matter experts and the core generic face of the organization. So when I went back a year later, where it wasn’t ideal, people had left the organization who’d come in as HR professionals because they ended up doing admin roles rather than HR roles. People still interestingly perceive ideal HR and HR in a year or a million a year as being a big overlap and about point eight overlap this time around. But I also looked at the past HR a year ago, and what people did was they moved the starting point backwards to say, we’ve come a long way, but we started further back than we thought. And I found that fascinating of the implications of doing any change if you can sell the change well. People will give you more leeway because they still see a really bright future, because they think that they travel further than they thought they were at. And the starting point moves back. And I noticed a big difference between the parent company, HR who really resented the new company, even though they had to work with them because the parent company did nothing at all with the people who were staying. And it was almost a survivor’s guilt. And because they saw those of us who were moving, getting a lot of care, attention, a lot of teamwork, a lot of managing the future and creating that really vivid future, that they resented it because they felt abandoned. They felt left out. They’d lost their friends because we all moved to a different building 5 or 10 miles away, which in the UK is a long way. I appreciate that in the US, ten miles is the next street, but here it’s a long way away. so that that sort of influenced another little model I came up with. There’s a past, present and future timeline, but basically says for the change to be effective, you’ve got to close the past. You’ve got to kill it off.  You’ve got to go celebrate successes from the past and recognize achievements, but then close it down and give the argument for change. You’ve then got to create a really vibrant future picture of what’s going to happen, what it’s going to be like in the future, how it’s going to be so people know what they’re doing, who they’re doing it with, where they’re doing it, and all of those good things. And then you’ve got to create a route map to help them get from where they are now, to where they should be as part of that change. And if you don’t do all three of those, you end up with people around the world, two colors, complaining about the past and complaining about how good things used to be and how things worked, which is just underneath. I always get the wrong hands on this. Just underneath my shoulder.   I’ve got that hostility, which is Kelly and the concept of fighting hard to prove people are stupid for making your change when there was nothing wrong with the past. So a lot of energy is involved in proving them idiots, as it were. Because, you know, the past was good, so you got to close it, but still celebrate. If you don’t create that vibrant future, people will feel they’re a little bit like a hamster on a treadmill and not know when change is going to stop. When can we start? When do we keep on? Is this just never ending? And if you don’t give them the route map, you end up with people running everywhere, going off in all directions, doing what they want. And in some of the training and the team work, I do have a lovely little exercise that for me brings this to life. I get everybody to close their eyes and point east, and then when they’ve all pointed east, I get them to open their eyes and look at where everybody else is pointing. And of course there are pointing all over the place. And I use that as an example that we haven’t got the route map right.

Andi Simon: You know, John, a couple of things to just set a context for what you’re saying because I was working with a client last week, and we were talking about changing the culture. And culture isn’t a pretty thing or how you dress. It’s the essence of who you are. And once you adopt it, better or worse, it becomes a part of you. It’s hard to shed it.  And I often have a funeral, which is what you’re talking about. Recognized like in a funeral we memorialize what was so good in the past. And we ended because if we don’t it never goes away, it remains part of the beauty of what was. And if you don’t then have humans or futurists, we want to know where we’re going. If we don’t know where we’re going we can’t live today. And so we become immobilized because the future is cloudy, the past is gone and we don’t have any plan for any day. It becomes anxiety producing unnecessarily. Because if we can visualize where we’re going and then we can backward plan it, we can begin to understand and celebrate the small wins. Getting there. We know that maybe it’s a destination that we will expand beyond, but at least there’s a human based roadmap. Literally. You’re right. I need a Google map that’s going to take me from where I am to where I’m going. And the past is the past. But let’s funeralize it, memorialize it. Don’t disrespect it. because you didn’t get here without a good foundation, and now you want me to give up what I know works, even if it isn’t the perfect way to go to something that I have no idea if it’s going to work. And that screams anxiety. So this is really interesting. If you can move left or right and walk us through your little map behind you, can you do that on zoom?

John Fisher: Maybe I can, yes. move a little bit. I think one thing, just to pick up maybe two there from what you’re just saying, Andi, I love the concept of a funeral.  I’ve got to say, and with your permission, I’ll nick that as well in the future. I might, just because of the way my brain works, which is illogically and peculiarly the Irish concept of the wake. That’s a celebration. And one of the things that’s happening at a lot of our sporting events is when they have a remembrance and somebody who sadly passed it always used to be a minute’s silence at the event. One of the things that’s become more popular over the last decade or so is a minute’s applause. And I love that concept of the celebration. And I think for me to work in my world, it would be a wake and let’s have a wake for the past, then allows us to look to the future, as a natural, as stepping stone. And how do we replicate within there? And I learned very early on in my internal, consultancy days that you have to set context. And for me, context is fundamental as a result. And the organization that I was in at the time had gone through a lot of small changes and mini changes and had ended up where I’m the latest change agent that’s going in talking about our change.  And a lot of the blue collar workers were saying we’ve been here before. Why is this different to that ten years ago? Why is this different to those six years? And I ended up creating a jigsaw with the puzzle, the pieces all fitting into it on PowerPoint that had the names of all the previous changes on there that I then fitted in, and I then superimposed the change. I was managing on top and basically said we couldn’t have gotten here without all of those stepping stones that helped us to get where we are now. So they were fundamental in our journey and I love the journey concept. Yes as well.

Andi Simon:  That’s a brilliant idea because we don’t really know how we got here. And until you concretize it in my answer 101 class, I remember so well, the professor said, remember, out of context, data has no meaning. And so your context point is worth emphasizing because you know your folks are resisting the next one. I mean, we all can have stories like that. I had my own where the minute you walk in, they’re ready to shoot you. You can feel the spear is heading your way. Oh, another change agent. One of the things that I’m trying to work through is how do you help people make change their friend? We’re listening, we’re talking. I’m saying to myself, you know, John has some insight into how do I turn pain into pleasure. Because, you know, the brain goes after pleasure, even if it’s painful and it lives a story that’s there. It becomes the way we do things. Yeah, I can make a pleasurable experience for you where you master it and you feel competent at it, like hitting a golf ball. Can I turn around your mind from resisting to embracing and encouraging your thoughts?

John Fisher: And I think I think that’s fundamental. And I think that’s how we get from compliance to commitment. And one of those ways is engagement. Listen to the people. Engage them, involve them and get them. Part of that process from day one. Let them speak. You might not do what they want, but give them a place to talk. Let them get it off their chest in inverted commas, and then engage them in the solution. And I’m a big fan of a couple of things. Solution. Focus. I’m a big fan of which I define as I’m not interested in how I got here. What interests me is how do I get from here to where I should be. And that movement, engage them in them, get them to own that journey. So how could we make it work? What could we do? And Todd James’s timeline therapy. I use that a lot, both in 1 to 1 coaching and when I’ve used the curve, in getting people to visualize the other side of the curve and getting them to move towards it and work towards it so it helps them create their own future. And what the curves are about is it’s about that impact. So initially you’ve got that. What’s going to happen? This change is coming, how will I cope with that change? What will the impact of it be? You’ve then got to thank God it’s now here. At last we can start moving forwards. Will this be good, bad or indifferent? And when I’m doing this in workshops, I look at a four box model of a Boston box around. This change is going to be good or bad for me on one of the axes. And the other one is I’ve been here before. Yes or no on the other axes that you can then plot where people are and their perception towards that change. So you can then still start managing that change. And that’s where we start then coming down the curve or there’s a little road off, which we’re probably this way is the best to move there. We’ve got the road off there with that denial and the head in the sand, and I’m just going to carry on and do nothing.

Andi Simon: I love the little guy behind you that says, this isn’t for me. I’m out of here.  I see myself in the future. Well, you know, your point is extremely important. Remember, the podcast is called On the Brink: How to get You Off the Brink. This can be a personal life or in a professional life. But the same human processes are essential. If you don’t see where you’re going, you can’t get there. And only you can see where you’re going. I can help you, right?  And as you’re working on this, do you do conversational intelligence? I mean, I love the work of Judith Glaser, where the brain responds with hormones differently to the word AI than to we. If it’s a weak transformation, oxytocin says let’s bond and do it. And if it’s an AI you’re going to the cortisol runs around and says, get out of here. any thoughts about the conversations and how to have them intelligently fundamental?

John Fisher: The conversation is everything about it. It’s what sets the context. It’s what sets them working together. And one of the things I love about personal construct theory and constructivist psychology is it’s one of the few, if not only sort of psychology where the expert is the individual, the client, rather than the therapist. So if you think about lots of other psychologists, Sigmund Freud from that it’s the person sitting behind. It’s interpreting your thoughts. Whereas within constructivist psychology you work with the individual to help you understand their processes, their thoughts and their definitions that then help you help them map their territory. And we all know the map isn’t the territory, but it gives you that guideline and it gives you that example. So again, it goes back to that engagement and involvement. It’s a co-created joint discussion that helps you explore. I’ll move that way, helps you explore really the size and the scope of the impact that it is on people as we’re going down this curve that the bigger rig gets, the more they internalize it, till if we get to the the bottom of it, we’ve got down there confusion and that I don’t know what to do.  Well, my past experiences aren’t helping me. I can’t use the things I’ve done in the past because they’re no longer working. And then that’s where we come off this and we go round potentially down to that hostility about trying to force the issue and not change with a lot of energy, a lot of activity, or we start working and thinking about, I can make this work. What’s options? How can I make a different choice? Where can I go differently? Now I’ve added one here as well. And that’s where I’m not prepared to compromise my values to stay. That’s where maybe the organization’s toxic and it’s that I’m better than this. I trust myself, I know I’m a good person. I’m being forced into a situation I don’t like. And a couple of times, a couple of organizations I’ve been in that’s happened to me.

And I’m sure with your weird experiences, you’ve had similar issues. One organization I was in, we were encouraged to learn from mistakes and courage to go out on a limb and try things and then learn whether it worked or not. That was all a learning to then get the finance director sending an email out saying, I’m sick and tired of people doing this. The next person who does this will be named and shamed, unquote. So it was I’m off. I’m going. And part of the thing I do in the workshops or in the one to ones with people is to get them to visualize success, get them to look at what they can do to make it work, and to turn around and look to the future and then use a bit of scenario planning, or types of exercises to get them either creating an identity for themselves that works in that place based on other people who’ve been there, or to create their own roadmap, route maps, to how do they get to whatever they’ve seen as their and go.

Andi Simon: A couple of things and then we’re about ready to wrap up. One of which is that the mind remembers what you celebrate. And if you don’t celebrate, people’s minds will simply delete what you’ve just asked them to do or change or whatever. So your finance guy’s story, I think we’ve all had one of those. They just don’t care. How do you want them? You know, we’re doing a program on feedback, feedforward. And what is it you want someone to do by telling them through feedback what’s working and what’s not? And if you don’t really help them do it differently, then all you’ve done is spend time berating them about the past and not giving them any guidelines on how to be better tomorrow. It’s about a feed forward, not a feedback.

John Fisher:   Please model. I’m sorry. I am so excited about that because I totally agree. And the sandwich doesn’t work and has been proven not to work. But I came across a model 5 or 6 years ago that looks at what worked really well.  What did you do well? What could you do even better? And it’s for me, a stunning feedback model that I get at the start of every training session where I’m doing a series of them with the same people. I get them to tell me what’s their biggest success, what are they most proud of since our last session? And with hindsight, what would they now do differently? So the start of every session and I use it a lot in 1 to 1 coaching, is them giving themselves feedback on their performance, what they’ve done. And for me, that’s the most effective feedback and the healthiest feedback model I’ve come across. One organization I did some work into called the plus. Even better if I model. What are all the pluses? What are the things that will be even better if you did something different and it takes the negativity out of the conversation.

Andi Simon:  And and then, you know, somehow maybe we’ve been raised with the negative being the punishment for doing something and we almost have to retrain all our parents on how to praise and what to build, because kids are no different than adults in this, and you’re setting them up for pain as opposed to growth, learning, pleasure. You know, you and I could talk a lot for a long time. I’m already thinking about who I want to send your podcast to listen to. We shall do a follow up to this, but for the moment, share with our listeners a couple of things you don’t want them to forget actually to do. I love your feed forward. You know, the positive. But, you know, a couple of things that you’ve learned. Your culture curve has done that they should walk away with and say, I can do that.

John Fisher:And I think one of them is the feedforward. It’s using the model of what worked and what would you do differently rather than being threatening. It’s about making change personal. So what will they get out of it? Engaging them within that change and helping them move through that change process.  And I suppose one of my key thoughts is that organizations don’t change.  People do. So it’s putting the eye into change rather than just dipping.

Andi Simon:  And, John, if people would like to reach you, tell them where your website is, what is it called and how can they get it?

John Fisher:  It’s called C2D and co.uk. And the C2D is coaching counseling and development. So because I’m really creative it’s CCD is what I do coach council and develop in there. So it’s just floating around in the ether. Anybody likes the curve here, they can download copies of it. This curve for your audiences is brand new. And, it’s just been changed on the website at the moment. The previous incarnation is still there, but there’s also a talk a bit more about my favorite resistance to change model, which looks at the pros and cons of changing and the pros and cons of not changing. and all the things in the firebox model. I talked about a bit of work on my master’s dissertation..

Andi Simon: I think that John has to come back in six months, and we have to talk about how to adapt to the fast pace of change today, because everybody is really struggling with the great transformation, the pandemic. You mean I used to say to clients, don’t hire me unless you have a crisis or you create one because you’re at a point where you’re going to listen. This will be very difficult for your folks to begin to appreciate. Why are we giving up? What’s working okay? It’s not working okay. And you know, the book that this podcast was based on, On the Brink has eight client stories about clients that got stuck or stalled because they couldn’t see what was right before them. And a little anthropology helped them do that. It’s a little like what you do. I mean we help them see what’s right there that their minds are deleting or you know, obfuscating because they can’t quite make it work.  Let me wrap up for my listeners. Thank you for coming today and.

John Fisher:  Thank you for having me.

Andi Simon: I know it’s so much fun. Isn’t it fun to share? What I’d like to tell our listeners, though, is that we are anthropologists. Not everybody knows what that means or how to help the business. And so, you know, I keep pushing a little bit about how I help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you too can adapt to these fast changing times. I don’t think we’re going to go back. And whether it’s hybrid or it’s a new technology, it’s a global workforce. Everything is under a siege. I changed, and as John and I can tell you, you know, I did my dissertation on punch cards. They don’t exist anymore. I can tell you my list of all the things that have changed in our lifetime.  The speed is just accelerating. So join the fun, change your friend, and let us help you. Because both John and I like to jump right in and help you see things through a fresh lens so you can adapt to fast changing times. The past is coming back to the future. You can visualize it, but it’s never particularly certain. My books are all on Amazon. Our new book, Women Mean Business Over 500 Extraordinary Insights from Extraordinary Women to help Spark Your success as doing extremely well. And we’ve had over 50 events helping women see themselves through a fresh lens. There are 102 women in the book who share five wisdoms each. That’s 500 wisdoms. And the one that I love the most is as I rise, I lift others with me. And that is really what women are trying to do. My second book, Rethink Smashing the Myths of Women in Business, is about 11 of our cases of our folks who we interviewed lots and lots and lots of interviews to find five to share with you of women who smashed the myths of women in business.  And so there’s a theme here. We like to help you change. Change is painful, but we can help you do it in a way that makes change your friend and that friend is somebody you want to spend a lot of time with. They want to come back after their first counseling and see, now how do I change, right? So John, thanks again. I’ll see you in six months. We’ll redo this and keep the story going. Goodbye everybody. Have a great day. Please turn your observations into innovations and be a little anthropologist. I know you can.

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