404: Are You Ready to be that Great, Empathetic Leader?

Empathy as the New Leadership Paradigm: A Conversation with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller

In today’s rapidly evolving business environment, traditional leadership models are becoming increasingly obsolete. The command-and-control approach, once the hallmark of successful leadership, is now often seen as a relic of the past. With the rise of concepts like Quiet Quitting, The Great Resignation, and the friction surrounding remote work, leaders are faced with challenges that require a more nuanced, empathetic approach. In a recent interview on the On the Brink with Andi Simon podcast, Melissa Robinson-Winemiller delved into the critical role of empathy and Emotional Intelligence (EQ) in modern leadership.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller’s Expertise can Help You Become that Great, Empathetic Leader

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, an expert in leadership development and an advocate for empathy-driven leadership, brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to the table. With over 30 years of leadership experience, she has seen firsthand how the lack of empathy can derail even the most promising careers and business endeavors. Her journey into empathy and EQ coaching began after losing a career to what she describes as “unempathic leadership.” This experience propelled her to explore how empathy could transform leadership and business outcomes.

Melissa’s dedication to this cause is evident in her impressive educational background. She holds an MBA and a Master of Data Analytics, providing her with the tools to support her arguments with data-driven proof and sound business cases. She is currently pursuing a second doctorate in Interdisciplinary Leadership, with a dissertation focusing on Empathy in Leadership. This commitment to understanding and promoting empathy as a core leadership competency is further bolstered by her certifications in Change Management (ACMP/Prosci), the Society for Human Resource Management (CP), and Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice (DEI&J) from Cornell University.

Why is Empathy not just “Nice-to-have” but Critical to a Leader’s Success

During the interview, Melissa shared insights into why empathy is not just a “nice-to-have” but a critical component of effective leadership. She drew an intriguing analogy, comparing empathy to a treadmill—both are valuable tools, but neither will yield results if they are not actively utilized. In a world where leadership is increasingly complex, with challenges ranging from post-pandemic stress to the integration of AI in the workplace, the ability to understand and connect with others on an emotional level is more important than ever.

One of the key points Melissa emphasized is that empathy is not about being overly soft or lenient. Instead, it is about understanding the emotions and perspectives of others and using that understanding to guide decisions and actions. This approach leads to better employee retention, increased productivity, and innovation driven by the team. It’s a far cry from the outdated notion that leadership is solely about making tough decisions and enforcing rules. In Melissa’s view, true leadership is about guiding a team through change and uncertainty with compassion and emotional intelligence.

Melissa’s work has not gone unnoticed. Her expertise has been recognized by leading publications such as Forbes, Inc., The Wall Street Journal, and The Harvard Business Review. These outlets have highlighted the growing importance of EQ and empathy in leadership, particularly in the modern age, where the pace of change is relentless, and the demands on leaders are more intense than ever.

Empathy is Really about Becoming Better Human Beings

Another critical aspect of Melissa’s philosophy is her belief that empathy and EQ are not just beneficial for business outcomes but are essential for helping people become better human beings. She argues that when leaders prioritize empathy, they create an environment where employees feel valued, understood, and motivated to contribute their best. This, in turn, leads to a more engaged and productive workforce, which ultimately drives better business results.

The interview also touched on the broader implications of empathy-driven leadership in the context of societal changes. Melissa discussed how the pandemic has accelerated shifts in workplace dynamics, with more employees seeking meaning and purpose in their work. This shift has led to the rise of movements like Quiet Quitting and The Great Resignation, where employees are no longer willing to tolerate toxic work environments or leadership styles that disregard their well-being. In this new landscape, leaders who fail to adapt risk extinction, while those who embrace empathy and EQ will thrive.

Melissa’s message is clear: the future of leadership lies in evolution, not extinction. Leaders who are willing to develop their empathy and emotional intelligence will be better equipped to navigate the complexities of the modern workplace. They will be able to build stronger, more resilient teams and create a culture of collaboration and innovation.

In conclusion, the interview with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of empathy in leadership. As the business world continues to evolve, leaders must recognize that empathy is not a weakness but a strength that can drive success. By embracing empathy and emotional intelligence, leaders can create a more inclusive, productive, and innovative workplace where everyone has the opportunity to thrive.

This interview is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of leadership and the role that empathy will play in shaping it. As Melissa so aptly puts it, “The more we all work together to be better human beings, the more we all have to gain.”

If you prefer to watch our video podcast with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, click here.

You can learn more about Melissa Robinson-Winemiller here:

Check out her YouTube Channel – The Empathic Leader: https://www.youtube.com/@The.Empathic.Leader

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Read the transcript of our podcast below: 

Andi Simon:  Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon, and as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. And I go looking for interesting people who are going to help you see, feel, and think in new ways. Remember, I’m an anthropologist. My job is to help organizations and the people inside them change. But for you to change, you have to see things. You have to hear stories about them. You have to begin to mimic others who are doing it. If not, it becomes quite abstract and change is now quite epidemic, if not endemic. And we’re all being asked to modify what we do, how we do it. The pandemic was a big change maker, but quite frankly, I used to ask my clients, if you want to change, have a crisis, or create one. I would never recommend that kind of crisis but think about all the things that it has put into action. All the questions that we’ve raised. All the folks who have done extremely well, hybrid or remote.

 I mean, it is really causing us to rethink leadership, followership, performance, everything. So today I have with me Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemaker. Dr. Robinson is a wonderful coach and consultant. Let me tell you a little bit about her. She took the plunge. Sort of an interesting story. She took the plunge as an empathy and EQ coach and consultant after losing a career to an empathetic leadership. She’ll tell you more about that. She has never looked back. It has been a beautiful journey for her. Her goal was to discover how to create better leadership with a single element. Most leaders, in her experience, dismissed EQ through the use of empathy. Now, many of you understand IQ. EQ there’s a new one coming out of transformational Q. I love my friend Shelly’s Zalis, who’s got the feminine FQ along with all the other all kinds of Q’s out there, but we’re complicated critters and we need a lot of education. Empathy is a word that’s used but not always understood or done, but it can really be the transformer of you as a leader or a follower. Her goal was to discover how to create better leadership. This is very serious. Serious enough to bring 30 years of leadership experience to the fore, serious enough to pursue a second doctorate in interdisciplinary leadership with a dissertation focused on empathy in leadership. Serious enough to have an MBA and a Master of Data Analytics to be able to back up her arguments and data driven proof and saddled with sound, with data driven proof and sound business cases. And this was really serious. It bolstered all of this with certifications and change management. And this is a woman who has really reserved all of her efforts to really find a way to help people with very good wisdom, data, understanding and knowledge. And so, I’m delighted to have her with us today. This is going to be such a fun conversation. Thank you for joining me.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:  Well, thank you so much for having me, Andi. I really appreciate your show. You’re in the top 20 futures podcasts, I mean, this is exactly where I want to be. So, thank you for having me.

Andi Simon: One of the things we’re going to do today, though, is you have a book coming out in September or so, and it’s going to be extremely important. Empathetic leaders are different from others. And I will tell you that the more we do the research, there’s a real tension, a serious tension between those who are old line command and control, hierarchical leaders, and those who are market driven. And I’ve had some of those clients all they want with the results and then those who are becoming collaborative, not creative. They use teamwork, enablers, facilitators using different words and no longer the rules rule. It’s much different. So, tell us about you first, because I think your journey is a very powerful one for people to understand. Even walking away from an empathetic leader is a big deal. Who are you?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:  So, I, for most of my life, was a musician and artist and I loved it. I played the French horn. I was a classical musician. I played in the orchestras, and I was perfectly happy being that person I just knew since I was really young, that’s what I wanted to do. So I went through the steps, I did the performances. I did the education, and I got my first big tenured professorship. And I was so excited and moved to the other side of the country and got there. I mean, with the understanding that there’s just not a lot of French horn professors were pretty rare. There just aren’t a lot of spots for us, especially now if you’re talking tenure track. And I got there, and I was so excited, and I couldn’t wait, and I was enthusiastic. And within the first quarter of my being there, I was assaulted by one of my colleagues. And I only say that to say what happened next was me climbing through the system for the next seven years and trying to get someone to listen, trying to get someone to understand what had happened. And by the time it was all said and done, I had actually lost a career that had been about 40 years in the making and the only thing I’d ever wanted to do. But the thing that just left me so confused, because, I mean, the initial person aside, was how everybody I talked to, from the leadership to all the different departments, to anybody that I thought could help me, they weren’t mean, they weren’t malicious, they weren’t even necessarily without empathy. But I just could not seem to get through to them. So, when I finally left and came back to the Midwest, for Covid and a few other things I started trying to figure out. So, what happened? So, where’s the disconnect? There’s obviously a disconnect here somewhere. So, what is it? And I started doing some reading and that’s what got me on to empathy and EQ and the more I dug into it, the more it just seemed like this is it. This is where I need to focus and end up with the other masters and working on the doctorate. And I’m convinced that there is gold in the empathy EQ intersection, and it’s just a matter of getting it to the right people, in the right places.

Andi Simon: But I don’t think things have changed. And I do think that the lack of understanding of what’s appropriate or acceptable is more disturbing and who comes to the fore and who flies the other way. It is a very interesting world we live in. So now that you’re on this new part of your life’s journey, you still are playing the French horn a little bit.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: No, not really, because I was an orchestral French hornist. And, you know, unfortunately, that’s not something I can really do by myself. On rare occasions, I get the opportunity to still work with people that I worked with in the past. But even at that, the last time I was able to play was 2021, 2022. So, it’s been a while.

Andi Simon: It’s so funny. Time flies. Well, in any event, now that you’ve given us such a wonderful opening to empathy and empathetic leadership, what have you discovered? You’ve taken a variety of programs. Whether it’s the data analysis, the change management, the way in which EQ and empathy work, you know, make us your students. Educate us.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah. So, EC is one of those things. It’s one of these vague things that people think they know what it is when they hear it. But if you ask someone to define it, they probably wouldn’t be able to. And we’ve been messing around with it since 1989. That’s when it was first put in a paper. So, the thing with EC is it helps you understand your emotions, be able to control your own emotions and understand the emotions of others. Well, that sounds like a nice, tight, tidy little package. But actually, being able to do it is a whole different thing. So, the way I actually teach it is EQ via empathy or EQ through the use of empathy. A lot of people lump empathy in with emotional intelligence, but I actually think it comes in the front that you use the empathy to be able to figure out what emotional intelligence skills you need. And the way I explain this is to say that your emotional intelligence is like a tool bag. You’ve got all the tools in there you need, whether it’s communication or creativity or being able to work with other people or your wrenches and your screwdrivers and your chisels and whatever else is in there. Well, what empathy does, because at its core, what empathy is being able to feel what another person feels without taking responsibility, without trying to fix anything, just feeling it now by feeling what that other person is feeling now, I can start to understand what they need.

Now I can start to understand which emotional intelligence tools I need, and I can pull out of my tool bag a screwdriver instead of a chisel and actually be a more effective, actionable leader. Because that’s the other part of it that I talk about a lot is the actionability of it. Most people have empathy. Most people have EQ, statistically speaking, but it’s one thing to have it and it’s another to use it. It’s kind of like having a treadmill, you know, maybe you’ve done it, or you know, someone who’s done it. You got a treadmill sitting in the middle of the bedroom and you’re throwing clothes on it, and maybe the cat sleeps on it and it’s just kind of hanging out there. But because you’re not using it, you’re not getting the benefits from it. Same thing with empathy and EQ. It’s one thing to have it, but it’s another to actually use it. And that’s where my big thrust is.

Andi Simon: If that’s the case and it’s that important. If I’m an empathetic person, I don’t have to be a leader. I just have to be a colleague or a friend or somebody who understands that when I say I feel your pain, it doesn’t mean I’m sympathetic towards it. I’m empathetic towards it. Yes. And those are different feelings or anything very different.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: And people do get them mixed up a lot because in our society we kind of lump them together with sympathy. There’s an element of judgment. That’s where you get the oh, but for the grace, there go I kind of thing. And you’re judging another person’s situation. And in fact, in the medical literature, which is where a lot of studies on empathy and empathy fatigue come from, they actually say, do not use sympathy because it has negative results. If you’re working with your patients, don’t do it. Stay away from it because that person feels they’re being pitied, and nobody wants that no matter how bad it is. Whereas with empathy, I’m just in it with you. Brené Brown describes it as just being in the stuck. You’re in it together.  I understand, because even if I haven’t had that particular experience, I’ve had that feeling. And I’m with you. I’m not judging. There’s no responsibility. We’re just together.

Andi Simon: Now. If you do say something like that and are truly feeling it. What happens? Why is it better or different than not relating at all?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: The thing with empathy is usually it’s a relation to a dark emotion. I mean, you can also have empathy where you feel that happiness, that emotional contagion where everybody is suddenly just happy because it’s a happy situation. But more often than not, it’s because there’s something dark going on. I understand your feeling because your grandma just died. I understand your feeling because you just lost a job, whatever that is. And what we do as a result is we show compassion. And that’s the difference. Empathy is the feeling. Compassion is the action result. So, once you felt that empathy, you felt discomfort, your urge to show compassion. Now we’re getting into the realm of actionability.

Andi Simon: That’s very important. I have a client, and as part of their new brand, the fifth value is compassion. And, as you’re talking, I’m wondering if they know how to actually experience compassion or express it. I was wondering, well, how will you know?  People are compassionate. It’s a healthcare client, and you’re raising a good question. If I’m empathetic, I can now act in a compassionate way. Is this what I hear you saying?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. Empathy is what you are, and compassion is what you do.

Andi Simon: So, with empathy is what you are. What else is it that I do besides compassion? I suspect there are other things as well.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Compassion is the direct response to empathy. But that’s what I mean about being able to access your emotional intelligence schools’ tools. Because in relating back to that empathy and taking that action, especially in a business setting, you know, you may be compassionate by doing nothing at all. You may be being compassionate by having the hard conversation to try and help someone to do better, go farther. You know what that compassion looks like is going to depend on the situation. And in a business setting, I mean, business has to get done. You know, there’s hard decisions to be made. There’s difficult things that you have to deal with. That’s why I actually think of this as a strategic application of empathy for effective and actionable use of EQ. It doesn’t mean it’s all puppies and rainbows and everybody’s going to be nice, but it does mean that you’re going to be able to find the outcome. That should be the best for all.

Andi Simon: This is very deep and very interesting. When you’re working with clients, can you give us an illustration of how you assess and then develop and then convert them into actionable, empathetic people.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah, that’s a fantastic question because it has to start somewhere, right? So, I’ll be talking to these clients and they’re generally high-level leaders. And because of that they can be very driven. They can be very high self-actualizing on the Maslow pyramid. They can be gunners and extremely ambitious. And because of that, they tend to be kind of cut off from themselves. They don’t necessarily know how to show self-empathy or self-compassion. Well, if you can’t do that for yourself, how are you going to do it for anybody else? So that’s usually where I start. And a lot of times in my experience, this is a direct result of imposter syndrome, because you’ll get people in these high-level positions that have maybe gotten there because they’re the lawyers that pull in the biggest cases, they’re the best technician, they’re the smartest engineer, but they’re not necessarily leaders, and they’re not trained as leaders, and they know that. So, they come in and they try to command and control a strong, absolute kind of leadership because they don’t have another way. They haven’t been taught that there’s other ways to do this. So, by starting with themselves and being able to understand self-compassion and self-empathy, it’s okay to go for a run in the morning for your health.  It’s okay to be able to take time with your family. We maybe need to address some of the other things that happen because you’re not happy with yourself. Then they can start relating to their people.

Andi Simon: It’s interesting. Now when I teach leadership, I also teach followership and give us the other side of this relationship because without followers, leaders can’t be successful, and followers are obedient. Some leaders are happy, if some are creative and a risk taker, some leaders are happy. Where does the empathy quotient fit into the relationship between leaders and followers?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:   So, I actually see this in two ways. The first is just the way it will ripple out. So, if you’ve got this culture and it’s an empathic culture and it’s coming down from the top and it’s rippling out, then you’re getting it to the middle managers. You’re getting it to the other people, and pretty soon you’ve got an empathic culture. You’ve built this culture. So, the people are going to be emulating this. Because the other part of that is that as a leader, you’re always on stage, for lack of a better term.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:  Someone is always watching, someone is always listening, and someone is emulating you no matter what. Which is why words and actions have got to align. So, if people are seeing these empathetic actions and they’re watching what you’re doing, they’re going to be a lot more likely to emulate that. And now you’ve got leaders coming up that are already educated in this empathic leadership style.

Andi Simon:  Are there conversations about this or are we just taking action on it? I’m curious because if you’re going to change people, they need to know what they’re changing to from what they are now. And if they aren’t aware of what empathetic leadership means, how will they know if they’re doing it well or not doing it, or not doing it at all? Your path isn’t a crawl, walk, run, or is there a different model or a metaphor?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: You know the way I’ve helped implement it, I guess maybe it’s the best way to do it or the best way to say it. Usually, I’ll coach someone who just kind of goes in and starts showing these behaviors, but then by showing these behaviors, suddenly things will change. Would you mind if I gave an example of this? This might be a good place.

Andi Simon: An illustration would be perfect. Please go ahead.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Okay, so I’ve been working with this director, and I really like working with mid-level managers because they have the opportunity to manage both up and down so they can really make a big difference. But so, this guy was going into a new situation. He was like, okay, so this is something that I haven’t necessarily seen before, but they really want me to come in and work on culture. What do you suggest? And my suggestion was just making contact with your people. So, what we figured out is we had him do his rounds. He goes on, he goes on his rounds once a day. And he basically cruises by the places where his people are. And he doesn’t spend a lot of time, he doesn’t have time to sit and chat, but he just kind of walks through and hey, how are you doing? What’s happening? How’s the kids? You know that kind of thing. And by doing this, they know his face. They know his voice, and they know why he’s there. What he’s done is he’s built his know like and trust factor. They know who he is. They like him because he’s actually taking the time to get to know them. And because of that they trust him. Well, immediately he started having people come to him and say, look, we’re ground level on this. We can see what’s going on. We’ve got inefficiencies here. We think that we could tweak this over here so that we could actually get something a little more innovative out of it. We’ve got all these great ideas. Will you listen to us? Because they trust him. And he said, yeah, let’s figure this out. Let’s see what we can do to make this better. And he’s already raised his scores and his patient satisfaction scores. This is a health care institution and really kind of blown up. But the thing is, on top of that, his people are loyal. They want to do more. So, the productivity and the employee satisfaction has also gone up, which is going to show on the bottom line because he doesn’t have ongoing employee turnover, which is what had happened before. So, in one quarter he’s managed to change the culture. And it’s like, there it is. All he had to do was be visible so that they had the opportunity to know, like and trust him.

Andi Simon: Well, I think that I don’t want to make it simple or magical. You have to manage by walking around and being honest about who you are. People do things for people, and while you may talk about it as a corporate culture or the organizational culture, if he doesn’t live it and he stays in his office and keeps the door locked, they won’t trust that there is one, much less the right one for them. How interesting. I’m in that particular health care client. Does it all go down to the patient? Are you empathetic to the patient? Not sympathetic. Is that the same piece?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. In fact, there’s a lot of articles on the medical side now saying yes, stay away from sympathy. Do not because of the judgment and the pity. And, you know, these people are having the worst days of their lives in a lot of cases.

Andi Simon: It’s interesting. So, in your book let’s talk about Empathetic Leader. You can give us the subtitle as well. But you built a book around this, I’m assuming, to help people learn how to do this, understand what they’re doing. Is there an assessment phase? Give us some sense of what the book will have with it.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: So actually, this book has been such a labor of love because it’s just such a broad subject. There’s so much to it. So, the first part of the book, I actually spend time defining it so that people can understand it and get a hold of it instead of having this fuzzy thing that nobody really knows what it is. And from there, I actually start going through a little bit of my methodology, starting with self-reflection and the role of middle managers, how this can actually ripple out into the workforce, that sort of thing. I actually don’t have any kind of assessment in it, because a lot of people already know if they have it. I mean, with all of the different personality tests that are out there, they know if they have empathy or EQ and statistically speaking, 93% to 98% of the population has empathy to some degree. So yeah, there’s some that don’t. But that’s a whole different subject. So, for the most part it’s not a matter of having it. It’s back to that matter of using it. And so, I go through all that in the book and I take some time to look at specific things like generational friction. I have a background in change management. So, talking about the change initiatives like 60% of change initiatives fail.

Andi Simon: I know.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:  I mean, bad news, right? So, at the end of each chapter, I have a little video. Just because people learn differently. You are in academia, there’s visual learners, oral learners, kinesthetic learners. So that way I can kind of try to reach people in more than one way.

Andi Simon: Well, I think that’s fabulous because you can also show them what an empathetic response to something. Now leadership has its own mixed bag of stuff. You got a leader. Is there something a little different than the others? Empathy really is quite pervasive for everyone.  Being able to feel what others are feeling at any level. The idea is to be caring in a way that isn’t abusive in some fashion. I mean, you just want the right words to create the right feeling but now when I’m leaving, do I hold meetings differently? I heard about going or walking around and beginning to build trust. Are there other things one should think about doing to change the way you’re leading, so that it isn’t the rules ruling, but it is us together. I work a lot on the words you use to create the world you live in. So, I have a hunch there are new words that one should put in the vocabulary.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah, absolutely. and I think they’ve kind of been there, it’s not that they’re completely brand new, but like, I think a really major part of this is active communication. The beautiful part of empathy is that when it’s working and it’s working well, it goes in both directions. So that on one hand, because it does create vulnerability. And that’s scary. But if you’re open and you’re vulnerable with people, they’re going to be more likely to be understanding and be open and vulnerable back. So, through this active listening and the vulnerability, you’re actually able to get feedback. You’re actually able to understand what’s happening. And that doesn’t mean you have to take all of the feedback, but it does mean you can see what’s going on. You’re not going to have a sudden exodus of employees because you’re already going to understand what’s happening. You’re not going to just be in your office and not know what’s going on with your middle managers. You’ve created a synergistic communication thing.

Andi Simon:  I have a hunch you also help them do that with their clients or their customers or their patients. So, they see them in a different frame. They’re not things that I do, too. They’re people who need empathy.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. And at the end of the day, we’re all human beings being human.

Andi Simon: So, we talk to them differently. And we smiled differently at them. This is so interesting. So, tell us a little bit. When does the book come out?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: End of September. So soon!

Andi Simon:  Well, it is around the corner.  But it’ll be a real testament to your ability to shift who you are from a French horn player who’s on the concert stream, or to somebody who’s developing people and helping them change.  It’s really cool. Now, are you doing this mostly as a change manager, or are you doing it early in their careers so they can add it to their toolkit before they get too far along? Where is the best place to learn this?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: You know, I prefer if I had to choose one group to work with, it really would be middle managers because they’re new into this position. Usually they want to do well, they’re hungry for the leadership tools, and some of them haven’t had the opportunity to get them yet. So, they actually get the opportunity to learn these skills. Now, the other thing is, sometimes it can be kind of a lonely position because your kind of smashed in between the top and the bottom.

Andi Simon: Been there. You got it.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yeah, exactly. So, this gives them the skills to be able to say, look, you can make a big difference on a broad scale, and this is how you do it. And plus, those are the people that someday are going to be in the top-level leadership positions in all probability.

 So, way better to get it early. In my book, I talk about how the biggest thing they can do is practice and practice that it’s not a performance. This is a practice. This is something you do every day. So, the earlier you start, the more you can practice.

Andi Simon: I’m curious about is there an assessment tool that you use to assess either individuals or group dynamics from the impact of empathy or EQ? I mean, I use the OCI, I use performance culture performance index. I mean, there are lots of things out there. Is there one that you like or not yet?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:  No, not really because it seems to be so much of a case-by-case basis where I am.  I’m working with somebody one on one as a coach. So, I’m not really using an assessment tool as such, but that’s definitely something maybe I should look into for the future.

Andi Simon:  I don’t know, I do think that the culture index is an interesting way to assess people, and in a business. It helps them figure out if these are people who are detail oriented or big picture oriented or social or it’s just interesting to better understand their strengths and be able to be empathetic towards their help and build on what they need to build on and acknowledge what they’re really good at.  This is perfectly wonderful. The book comes out at the end of September. Will we be able to find it everywhere?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes.

Andi Simon: All the major places will make sure that we promote it. When you come out and you’re thinking about it. Is it a good time? Are there one or two or three things you want the listeners to really remember?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes. So, the first one would just be that according to research, we actually have the opportunity to show empathy 7 to 9 times per day. But a lot of it goes right past us because we’re not paying attention. So just pay attention, be aware and see where these 7 to 9 places come up. The second thing would be to not just sit on that empathy, use it to communicate, actually use it to be able to create a connection. It doesn’t have to be a super deep, heartfelt connection. It’s just a human-to-human thing. But don’t be so busy crushing candies or being distracted by other things that you let that go by. The third thing I would say is to really make sure you take that time to self-reflect. Don’t just let these things happen. Stop and think, did I do this the way I wanted to? Did I actually complete what I set out to do? Is there a way I could have maybe done this better? What was the reaction that I got so that you’re getting feedback on what you did and what you accomplished? So, if there were three things, those would be it.

Andi Simon:  I like it. Have you tried it?

Dr. Melissa Roberts: Which one?

Andi Simon: The self-reflection in particular.  I think that you’re on to something very big and important, that can get glossed over as if it’s a soft skill. And I hate the word soft skill. They are the essence of our relationships. And they are extremely important. They’re not an afterthought. They are thoughts. And if you do it well, you and the folks who are counting on you to lead them will be living happily ever after.  So, you went. Is there anything in the military that is, you know, reflected here as well that we can share? Do they raise their troops in a different fashion or is it still command and control.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: As far as I know, and I’ll admit that the military is the one place I haven’t spent a lot of time in, but as far as I know, it’s still very much a command-and-control style. Which is why when they try to pull in these things that are a little bit softer, that everybody’s kind of confused. They don’t quite know what’s going on with that. I mean, my dad was career military, so I was kind of raised as a military brat. And from what I understand, it hasn’t changed a whole lot.

Andi Simon:  Well, I guess some things are good to be stable and steady. Who knows? It’s been a pleasure. If they want to reach you, where can they get a hold of you?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: So, you can always catch them at my website, which is just https://eqviaempathy.com/.  I’m on LinkedIn via empathy.

Andi Simon: Great title. Yeah.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:   It was so much better than it seemed like the best way to explain that you’re doing EQ through the use of empathy and push it all together in one word, so it isn’t quite so long.

Andi Simon: And it’s just wonderful because it is exactly trying to combine. It’s hard to know how things get separated anyhow, right?

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:  Yes.

Andi Simon: Yes, absolutely. And that’s pretty cool. Okay, wonderful. And you are available on LinkedIn, like all of us are. That’s been our agency home that you have a place on LinkedIn, for better or worse. We’ll put this up on our podcast blog, we will promote it, and we will celebrate with you as the book comes out. And when you get a picture of it, send it along and we’ll include it in all of the materials as well. This has been such fun. Thank you for joining me today.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: Yes, thank you so much for having me.  I appreciate it, and thanks to your audience for listening. This has been a pleasure.

Andi Simon:  Well, the audience will walk away saying, am I an empathetic leader or am I just getting it done? It’s time to take a good look. Think carefully about are you saying to people, I feel your pain, or I’m so sorry that you’re feeling pain? You know, those are different words, and they matter. And if you want to lead well and have them build trust with you, go walk around, spend time getting to know them on a personal level, asking what are significant events in their careers or their lives in the next week or two weeks or three weeks. What’s happened? Just make them human, and all of a sudden, the relationships will be much better. So, for my listeners and my viewers, remember, as an anthropologist, I want you to step out and look at things through a fresh lens. You can take your curiosity and your observations and turn them into innovations. You can take the ideas that we share here and begin to apply them. Let us know how they’re doing for you. Send us your ideas. Remember, it’s all very much a time of idea sharing, because it’s a great time for us to teach each other how to do better together. And it’s been fun. My books: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is on Amazon. Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women is on Amazon, and Women Mean Business is on Amazon. And they’re also in Barnes and Noble and other local bookstores. And they love you to buy them, review them, read them, and share them with others and with me. So please have a wonderful day. Take care. Bye now.

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